March 10th Daily Discussion

I did hear Wood's teaching this a.m. I am glad to see this teaching corresponding to what I (half)hear while I'm getting ready...
In answer to your question above, 'they' would be the ungodly AND the unrighteous, who see God but will not honor Him.
It was an interesting point (for Wood) to make re: 'ungodly' & 'unrighteous' not being redundant, but are two different things.
I think we can all fall into this 'unrighteous' category. Romans 7:13-20. Praise God for His grace & forgiveness!

Hi Tami:

I like the new format. The passage raises a thought and a question.

The thought -- as we read through Romans Chapter 1 we see a sinful world. All sorts of sin and degradation are described. This passage is sometimes used to point out God’s views on various kinds of immorality. But as I keep reading I see other sins -- disobedience, gossip, slander and envy to name a few. Interesting how we can use this passage to point out the glaring sins in others and in society. Interesting how we can use this passage to single out particular sins but not see the sin in our own lives. Just a thought – I know I’m guilty.

The question – from this passage we see that God gave the people over to their own sins. Verse 25 talks about God giving them over to depraved minds because they did not deem it worthwhile to retain the knowledge that they had of God. Does God still do that with us? Does God take away light that He has given to us if we do not follow it? Does disobedience result in a reduced knowledge and ability to understand the things of God?

Interested in your thoughts.

As I was reading this passage, one word stood out to me - shameless. In verse 27 it says, "27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error."

This stood out to me probably because I track the homosexual movement and I read a lot of what the homosexual activists write on a daily basis, and I can tell you that there is no shame in what they write. In fact, they will mock and try to shame anyone who disagrees with their position.

Which then got me thinking about what am I guilty of concerning being shameless? My pastor taught on being holy on Sunday and he made the comment that our standards of holiness leave room for our own depravity ...in other words we do things that are shameful, but don't think so.

For me, I should confess that I really enjoy the soap opera General Hospital. I've watched this program since before I was a Christian, and I can go without watching it and I'm fine...but the truth is that I like the show. The problem however, is that the show does nothing to promote anything good. In fact, all the storylines revolve around deceit, lying, immorality and sin - blatant sin.

So if you all would pray that I would lay that aside and move toward even a greater goal of holiness and purity in my mind, I would really appreciate it. Since it is easy to see how others are shameless...well, I've got that in me too. I don't like it...but it is there.

Ahhh yes, shameless... All my years of debauchery before Christ delivered me were shameless, and I sometimes get a flash of memory that sends shivers through my body, recalling the evil mind I served with diligence. I was born-again at 36, so there are many years to recall! Now at 49, I am so grateful that Paul reminds us of all that we can be grateful for, since none of us can say we were clean of any particular trait Paul lists in this reading. However, like the previous writer, I am particularly interested in the homosexual movement, because this sin is so heavily promoted as "normal," unlike being a drunkard, drug addict, philanderer, etc. There are so many Christians who have friends and family that want to embrace the "gay" lifestyle and be "wanted." Lets continue to pray for all homosexuals and love them as Jesus would have loved them, yet resisting the enemy's lure to call this sin "love."

Insurance Guy,

First off, thanks for your thoughts and for the good questions. It's obvious that you're thinking and processing which is what P4 is all about. Now on to your questions.

Yes, God does still give us over to our depraved minds and desires. Just look around at the world we live in and you can see that happening daily. God does not, however, take away light or reduce our knowledge because of our disobedience. Rather Romans 1 tells us (verse 19) that God makes the truth about Him obvious to us--He shows us light. But then, we choose not to recognize and worship Him (verse 25 "they exchanged or traded the truth about God for a lie"). It's at this point that God does not further our light or knowledge of Him. He, instead, gives us over to our sinful desires. So when we are disobedient, God doesn't take away our knowledge but He also does not give us additional light or knowledge.

There you have it. Hope this was helpful. And thanks again for the thoughtful discussion. Keep it coming!

Tami W.

I have a sister-n-law who is gay and she says she is a Christian too. When I talked to her about it she says God knows whats in her heart and that she is saved and going to heaven. She knows what it says in the bible about homosexuality but she says to your own interpetation.

She warns me about being judgemental, and says for me not to judge her. My husband told me to stay out of it so I have...he feels the way I feel and has talk to her too but she just ignores anyone who talks about it.

My husbands whole family are born again Christians but they won't say or do anything when it comes to her.

Any suggestions? Thanks

I agree with your comment Tami to Insurance Guy,

I see myself going into a Dept. Store of Wisdom and Knowledge with my $100.00 and I get only what my money will buy and some of it I can't really use in life. Our own choices of what we need fall short in most cases. But when walking into the same Store with the Lord God almighty I may get (receive) any and everything that I need, more than I could ever imagine. Praise God for his abundant provisions. His wisdom and Knowledge truly being more valuable than silver or gold.

Carol - your question about your sister in law is actually very common. I also have a sister in law who is a lesbian and the family has basically not said anything about it, even though most of the family disagrees with what she is doing.

The bible warns us about being very careful not to deceive ourselves, and so I think that is very key. And of course using the don't judge passage is totally not being applied correctly by your sister in law because if she claims to be apart of the household of God, then we are called to judge one another.

So I would pray for her - of course, and I'm sure you're doing that. But even more specifically I would ask the Lord to lift the veil of deception off of her that she is being held captive too. I would not affirm her lifestyle, but I would let it be known that she is loved and cared for.

People who say that it isn't loving to not affirm her lifestyle, have no understanding about what God's love is about. She is on the road to destruction, and it is totally loving to warn her of that - but you have to do it in a loving way.

I hope that helps a little bit.

Carol, thanks posting your question about your sister-in-law. It can definitely be a sensitive subject when it comes to approaching our friends or family members about the choices they've made. I passed your question on to our Biblical Correspondence team who takes a lot of care in answering questions such as yours with wisdom and truth. I hope this sheds some light on your situation.

Tami W.

Response from Allen, Biblical Correspondent at Back to the Bible

First, let me emphasize that gays and lesbians are people God loves. They have eternal souls that Jesus died for. First Corinthians 6:9-11 says, "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God" (italics mine).

Many people grab onto the first part of those verses, "the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God" and skip over the latter part of those verses which says, "And such were some of you." Paul is saying, however, there were homosexuals (along with other sinners) in the early church who had been "washed..., sanctified...and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God."

Does that mean God approves of homosexual behavior? No, He doesn't. Nor is this simply a matter of "interpretation." Homosexual behavior is listed as a sin just like fornication, idolatry, adultery, drunkenness and thievery. And just like these other sinners are called to give up their sinful behavior, so is the homosexual.

So can a practicing homosexual be a Christian? Ultimately, only God knows who is truly a Christian and who is only pretending. But continuing on in sinful behavior (be it homosexuality, fornication, drunkenness, etc.) is an indication of one of two possibilities. Of course, the first possibility is that the person is not a Christian. Like many who are not caught in obvious immorality, it's possible for a person to say all the right things, but still not have a personal relationship with Christ. On the other hand, it's possible the person is a Christian who is caught in a besetting sin. Only God can tell the difference.

Does that mean I can become a Christian and excuse my behavior as a "besetting sin"? To do that would be dangerous. Paul warns those Christians at Corinth who were abusing the Lord's Supper, "For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep" (1 Corinthians 11:30). God will meet us and save us wherever we are--whether we're caught up in sexual sin or drunkenness or thievery. But He's not content to leave us there. One way or another, He will move us toward His ultimate goal--becoming conformed to the image of Christ (Rom. 12:1-2). His ultimate step, if His grace is resisted, is to take us home to heaven.

Our job is to love the sinner without condoning the sin (something that is not always easy to do). If the person is a Christian, the Holy Spirit will convict him or her of sin. We, then, need to be ready to support and help them to grow into a lifestyle that is pleasing to God.